Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Hey there, welcome back to the show. We've split up the rest of chapter two into two sessions, the first of which will air today, and the next will be on the following episode next week. 0:12 Find more info at progressimperfection.com, and enjoy the show. Welcome back. Hey, man. What's happening? I can't really-- Here's a problem. [laughs] So I'm, I'm blind. Yeah, I see that. Like, I'm, I'm old now- Yeah... 0:28 and I'm blind. Yeah. So you're a blob over there. [laughs] For those of you listening, he's maybe, maybe- Like-... six feet away from me... six, seven feet away But I can't see him. That's, that's awesome. 0:37 So I'm guessing where his eyeballs are. That's awesome. But I can see my book. [laughs] So I'm caught in this strange place of like, okay- Yeah... I can do this every now and then and, and feel a lot better about myself. 0:47 That's brilliant. Or I can do this and just pretend like- Yeah... I can see you. Yeah. Which is what I did last time, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, indeed, indeed. 0:53 Um, and I felt awkward 'cause I didn't know if he was laughing at me or- [laughs]... frowning at me or- We can count on that. We can count on that... or cursing at me. I don't know what he's doing over there. 1:02 [laughs] Um, all right, welcome back. Here we go. Always a pleasure. Here we go. Please, please read. We're on, uh, the bottom of page 23. "How true this is few realize. 1:15 In a vague way, their families and friends sense that these drinkers are abnormal, but everybody hopefully wait, awaits the day when the sufferer will rouse himself from his lethargy and assert his power of will." Hmm. 1:29 "The tragic truth is that if the man be a real alcoholic, that happy day may not arrive." Hmm. Hmm. "He's lost control. 1:38 At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. 1:49 This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it's suspected." Let me say real quick- Yeah... I think, um, just that first part, it, it really does introduce the, um, [clicks tongue] 2:04 I don't know the problem is the right word, but the influence of the family- Mm-hmm... and friends there. Um, that line, "In a vague way, 2:11 uh, their families and friends sense that these drinkers are abnormal, but everybody hopefully awaits the day when the sufferer will rouse himself." Um, I see that a lot- I bet... with people. 2:21 Like the denial from the family side. Yes, totally. That, uh, that, well, and it's, it's almost like it's less of denial, but it's almost, um, not knowing what the fix is. Yeah. 2:32 You know, and I think just briefly, it just speaks to, like, the role that family and friends do play in the alcoholic's overall recovery, that there's, th- there's gotta be, go Al-Anon, but there's gotta be some education, um, for the family members and significant others, friends as well, uh, in the sphere of the alcoholic in order for them to recover. 2:54 Um, I've seen plenty of times where spouses, you know, it's, it's the, it's the husband's problem, it's not my problem. Mm-hmm. So I don't need to stop drinking. Um, well, that's gonna be a problem. Yeah. 3:09 You know, that's gonna be a problem long term. I've seen couples try to successfully navigate that, but ultimately, the alcoholic just ends up becoming resentful and bitter because the wife gets to drink and they don't. 3:20 You know? Um, and it's kinda like, well, that's kinda interest-- I'll dive into this real quick. But I had a conversation with a guy yesterday, 3:28 um, who was kind of, like, struggling with the idea that, like, friends, family, people, um, the idea in Christian circles, especially Presbyterian circles, that like, um, you know, grace abounds, um, enjoying the fruit. 3:45 You know, people can quote these biblical scriptural references to be able to imbibe and enjoy alcohol. Yeah. 3:51 Um, and, uh, and he was like, "Yeah, I'm just really struggling with this idea of like, where do I, where do I justify my need from a biblical context without putting my brothers out?" 4:05 And what I said was like, "Well, I think it's your brother's responsibility to recognize what you're going through." And it's not that they have to out you, but it's this understanding. 4:16 I think it's, it, either in Galatians or Ephesians, but the idea, I think Paul's talking about, like, 4:23 meals with Jewish people and, and like, sure, everything is permissible, um, but be aware- But not everything is helpful... not everything is helpful. Something along those lines. Right. And, and- Yeah... 4:33 and sort of like be aware so as you don't cause your brother to stumble. Yes. Sort of like having a respect for the, his, his, uh, Jewish believer friends who would like, [chuckles] let's say, abstain from meats. Right. 4:43 But I'm over here and I'm gonna eat a freaking pork sandwich- Right... th- with like pork all over my face- [laughs]... and it's freaking delicious, you know. 4:50 Uh, well, you know, hey, everything grace abounds, brother, you know. Um, but not understanding the effect that they may be having on, on my Jewish brother. Mm. 4:59 Um, and so like, yeah, I, I don't mean to go off on, on a, on a tangent, too far of a tangent there, but I do think it's important that, like, friends and family members 5:09 be willing to recognize and acknowledge that, like, sure, it may not be a problem for you, but, like, do your brother a solid, you know? Yeah, right. 5:18 Have his, have his needs in consideration, and if, if you don't have a problem, then guess what? It ain't no matter a hill of beans for you not to drink. Right. So don't. It doesn't make a difference. No. So don't. 5:30 You know? So I don't know. It was, I, I just, I don't know. I picked up on that- Yeah... where we, where we started today. I don't know. 5:37 "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent. 5:48 We're unable at certain times to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We're without defense against the first drink." 6:01 I mean, that was huge for me because I had, you know, A, I was an immature little kid- Mm... 6:07 when I got exposed to recovery and AA, but I remember very vividly a conversation with a friend of mine at the time who was at least a heavy drinker- Mm... if not an a- I mean, who knows? 6:19 I don't- I've lost touch with him. But his thing was, well, if it's causing a problem, just man up, exercise some willpower, slow down, whatever. Mm. 6:30 And I remember that first mental battle with myself after that conversation of, well, that makes sense. Why can't I, like, why can't I just do that? Right. And- Mm-hmm... this had become true at that point. Mm-hmm. 6:44 There, there was no, uh, the willpower becomes practically nonexistent. Yeah. Right. 6:52 The almost certain consequence that following the, the, the almost certain consequence that follow taking a, even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. 7:03 If these thoughts occur, they're hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. 7:13 There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a s- on a hot stove. The alcoholic may say to himself in the most casual way, "It won't burn me this time, so here's how." 7:26 Or perhaps he doesn't think at all. 7:28 How often have some of us begun to drink in this nonchalant way, and after the third or fourth, pounded on the bar and said to ourselves, "For God's sake, how did I ever get started again?" 7:39 Only to have that thought supplanted by, "Well, I'll stop with the sixth drink," or, "What's the use anyhow?" Mm-hmm. Mm. 7:47 And when this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he's probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. 8:01 These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would've been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop, but can't. 8:15 It's amazing, like the, the, the amnesia. Instant amnesia. The amnesia that we get and, and, and, like, the inability to remember just the shit show- Mm-hmm... that life had become. Um, 8:33 it's, it's truly remarkable. And how many times have I seen it in my story? How many times have I seen it in other people's story? 8:41 Where you absolutely, you know, you end up in that pit and you p- pray in foxhole prayers like, "Oh, God." You know, it's the worst thing that's ever happened to you. And then like, 8:53 you know, for active drinkers, it's like literally like three or four days later, it's like, "Well, it wasn't that big a deal." At most. Yeah. Three or four days. Yeah. Ri- right, right, right. 9:02 It's like the inverse of what is a positive thing, how we've got 24 hours at a time. Mm-hmm. And how often in sobriety on the other side of that, in recovery, learning how to live in the day, that it's like, okay, 9:18 bedtime is the finish line. Crappy day, whatever. It's like, oh, I get to restart. Yeah. Like, you know, I haven't screwed up or anything, but it's just- Mm... it's just been a crappy day. Yeah. 9:28 And I think that's a natural, good- Mm. I mean, God created this to, you know, to be iterative and cyclical. Mm. And the seasons and then the day parts, um, and we get to reset. Right. 9:39 [laughs] But we distort that- Right... in our drinking of like- Mm-hmm... oh, it's reset and- Right... uh [laughs] Today's a new day... I guess I'm good now. [laughs] Today's a new day. It won't be that bad. Right. 9:50 It won't be. Uh, just like it says, I'll make sure I don't do X, Y or Z and- I, I'll not do this... this time it'll be different. Yeah. You know? It, yeah, it's, it's truly remarkable. Um, and like, you know, 10:06 it, it, it kind of speaks to the romanticiza- romanticization- Mm-hmm... uh, of our experiences with drugs and alcohol. You know, not only, it's like twofold. 10:16 Not only do we forget how bad it was, suddenly we have this selective memory that occurs where we remember how awesome it was. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, "Oh, dude, it wasn't that bad. In fact, it was amazing." Yeah. 10:28 Remember those conversations, like, we solved the world problems. You know, we had so much fun. You know, and, and I mean, part of that's true. Part of it was fun. Yeah. You know? 10:37 That's, that's the dangerous thing, is that there's enough truth in there to really latch on. Totally. Minimize all the other crap. Totally. Like a good conspiracy theory. That's right. 10:46 You know, the best conspiracy theories have this little grain of truth involved in them. Yeah. [laughs] You know? And then you just extrapolate from there. It's ama- I've got lots of conspiracy theories. 10:55 [laughs] Uh, uh, out there, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I love a good conspiracy theory. Oh, they're so good. They're, they're pretty hilarious. So good. 11:02 I've got thoughts about aliens, but we'll talk about that another time. Now, we finally get to the title of the chapter. So far, we've kind of strayed away in theme here, 'cause the title is There's a Solution. Mm. 11:15 And we've been talking about the freaking problem for- Yeah... I don't know how many pages now. Yeah, yeah. But pick up there on the top of 25. Yeah. You know, read it. There is a solution. 11:24 Almost none of us liked the self-s- the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation. 11:34 But we saw that it really worked in others, and we had come to believe in the hopelessness and futility of life as we had been living it. 11:42 When therefore, we were approached by those in whom the problem had been solved, there was nothing left for us but to pick up the s- the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at our feet. 11:53 We have found much of heaven, and we have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed. Okay, what's he talking about? All right, two questions. Somebody tell me about this. 12:03 A, number one- Right... what's he talking about? Right, right. And I'll break it down for you. Yeah. Simple kit of spiritual tools. Mm-hmm. What's this? Tell me about it. The simple kit of spiritual tools. Yeah. 12:16 Well, to me, that's the steps. Mm-hmm. Like, the... And this goes back to what my first sponsor, he would quiz me when we were reading through the books. Mm-hmm. Like, the answer's always gonna be the steps. 12:25 [laughs] Which is, it'll be th- Right... it'll be God or the steps. Right. Right. So don't, don't- [chuckles] Right... break your brain thinking- Right... about it. Right. 12:32 And, uh, b- but what we're talking about here is, hey, reality check. Mm. Nobody wants to do this shit at the start. Mm. Mm. You know, nobody wants to make an inventory- Mm... admit defeat, pray to God. 12:46 I mean, some do some of those things, but by and large, the program of AA is not about something that's easy to do- Right... or desirable. Right. It's the outcome that's desirable. Mm-hmm. 12:59 And so we, w- this is c- sort of the beginning- Mm... of him getting ramped up to go through the next two chapters of- Mm-hmm... really first and second step stuff before we even get into the work. Yeah. 13:12 But to get us amped up that, hey, there is a solution. Mm. Like, if you are experiencing this, uh, suffering and humiliation that you keep having instant amnesia over- Mm-hmm... 13:22 and then redoing it over and over again- Mm... like a bad Groundhog Day- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... like, there's a way out. Mm-hmm. 13:29 Nobody liked the crap we had to do to get there, but, and then he [chuckles] goes into the end of this, this rocketed into the fourth dimension- Yeah. Yeah... found much of heaven. Yeah. 13:38 And I, I've got it underlined, but I've got it simplified, too. Mm-hmm. That equals reality. Mm. Like, we get to live in reality- Mm... as a result at the end of the day here. Yeah. 13:49 You know, that's what this fourth dimension is. Yeah. It seems unattainable. Mm. It seems like we're really, like, on those good days of drinking- Mm-hmm... and drugging, like- Mm... oh, man, I've, I got there. 14:00 Everything was just- Right... clicking and I was- Right... in fellowship with, and everything, I was on this higher plane of existence. Sure. Sure. What we're looking for is how- Mm... to live in reality- Mm... 14:11 well- Mm... and with peace. Mm. And this is Bill's flowery talk- Mm... describing- Yeah... a very simple thing. Yeah, yeah. Thoughts. Okay. So- Timmy... what if, what if it's not? Yeah. What if it's not? 14:26 What if it's, well, what if it's reality as God intended us to live it? Mm. That's why it's a fourth dimension. 14:31 Like, what if we, through these steps, plug into this relationship with the creator of the cosmos that allows us to experience that reality in a way that we never thought possible? Yeah. That's what I'm getting after. 14:45 You know what I'm saying? That's that peace- Mm-hmm... that surpasses understanding. Mm-hmm. 'Cause we move into his will- Mm-hmm... for us in the stream of life. Right. Right. Right. 14:55 Rather than, like, butting up against it in parallel- Right... trying to get that perfect level of high. Right. Right. Yeah, 'cause I would say, like, um, if I live in reality, I wanna drink. Mm. 15:12 But if I live in the reality that God intends me to live in, I don't. Yeah, that's an important distinction that I- You know what I mean?... that I haven't always made there, yeah. 15:23 And I think, like, I think that's where I can get into, like, the, the, the fourth dimensional phrasing because it is this relationship that exists, like, outside of reality. 15:35 There's no, there's no logical reason to enter into that relationship with the Lord. It doesn't make sense. Mm-hmm. If you ask non-believers, and that's like, well, no, that's not reality. Yeah. You know? 15:47 Come back to reality, you know, live on planet. So to me, it's almost like this, like, um, it is this alternate reality. But to your point, it's not the alternate reality we lived in, uh, on drugs. 16:02 It's a sustainable version. Yeah. Right. Right. It's, it's like this foretaste, to his point maybe, this foretaste of heaven- Mm... 16:11 that we get to enjoy while living here on Earth, and it's this, you know, this experience maybe of communion with the Lord via the steps that we get to enter into this, like, fourth dimension, [chuckles] you know, this place that is sacred, uh, and that is holy and that is, like, good. 16:30 Um, so I don't know. It's not a push. That's interesting. It's like, it's like an add-on. No, it's an add-on- You know?... because you embrace that perspective. 16:40 And when I got there, and when some people I've talked to were, like, scratching their heads, "Well, what's this fourth, fourth dimension stuff?" And I, I think I dumbed it down so that it was more palpable. 16:53 Um, but it is, I think it is an add-on. Mm-hmm. I like that distinction. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm all about- Right... fourth dimensions. [both chuckling] Fifth dimensions. We can go on about that. 17:05 Uh, the great fact is just this and nothing less, that we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows, and toward God's universe. 17:19 The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. 17:28 He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves. Interesting wording there. Uh, it's very, like, I don't know. It, it, it reminds me, it's very Baptist. 17:40 [laughs] Love my Baptist brothers- Mm... and sisters. That idea that he entered into our hearts- Mm-hmm... uh, and lives in a way that is indeed miraculous. It does speak back to what we just talked about. Mm-hmm. 17:52 So I don't wanna push too much on that. If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. 18:00 We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives. 18:11 One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could, and the other, to accept spiritual help 18:20 This we did because we honestly wanted to and were willing to make the effort. I'll say that we should probably do an episode on the appendix two- Mm... in the back of the book. I've got it. 18:37 There's an asterisk- Mm-hmm... on deep and effective spiritual experiences here that references that. 18:43 And if, dear listener, you're curious and scratching your head about what we're talking about with spiritual experience, it's a great breakdown. Mm. 'Cause it basically highlights sort of what happened for me. 18:55 I mean, I, the, the fact that most of us go through a experience of the educational variety is how they put it to where we're... It's kinda like the best case scenario of fake it till you make it. 19:07 Go through the motions, get willing enough to take action, and as we start taking action and seeking him, oh, we, we have this spiritual awakening- Yeah... 19:17 this spiritual experience, uh, that I, I kinda think of as over time- Mm... uh, rather than a white light- Mm... uh, type of experience. Mm-hmm. Um- Noted. Yeah. Noted. All right, so here we go. 19:34 A certain American businessman had ability, good sense, and high character. For years, he had floundered from one sanitarium to another. He had consulted the best known American psychiatrists. 19:45 Then he had gone to Europe, placing himself in the care of a celebrated physician, the psychiatrist, Dr. Jung, who prescribed for him. 19:53 Though experience had made him skeptical, he finished his treatment with unusual confidence. His physical and mental condition were unusually good. 20:01 Above all, he believed he had acquired such a profound knowledge of the inner workings of his mind and its hidden springs that relapse was unthinkable. Nevertheless, he was drunk in a short time. 20:12 More baffling still, he could give himself no satisfact- satisfactory explanation for his fall. So he returned to this doctor, whom he admired, and asked him point-blank why he could not recover. 20:25 He wished above all things to regain self-control. He seemed quite rational and well-balanced with respect to other problems, yet he had no control whatever over alcohol. Why was this? 20:38 He begged the doctor to tell him the whole truth, and he got it. In the doctor's judgment, he was utterly hopeless. 20:44 He could never regain his position in society, and he would have to place himself under lock and key or hire a bodyguard if he expected to live long. This was a great physician's opinion. Well, great diagnoses. 20:59 Uh, yeah, sorry, buddy, you're hopeless. You're screwed. [laughs] You're hopeless. Yeah. Bodyguard and lock and key. Yep. Uh, and, and let me finish the- Mm-hmm... story up. But this man still lives and is a free man. 21:15 He does not need a bodyguard, nor is he confined. He can go anywhere on this earth where other free men may go without disaster, provided he remains willing to maintain a certain simple attitude. 21:27 Some of our alcoholic readers may think they can do without spiritual help. Let us tell you the rest of the conversation our friend had with his doctor. The doctor said, "You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. 21:38 I've never seen one single case recover where that state of mind existed to the extent that it does in you." Our friend felt as though the gates of hell had closed on him with a clang. 21:49 He said to the doctor, "Is there no exception?" "Yes," replied the doctor, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. 21:59 Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me, these occurrences are phenomena. 22:08 They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. 22:12 Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. 22:24 In fact, I have been trying to produce some, such emotional rearrangement within you. 22:30 With many individuals, the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description." Again, there's a reference to appendix two. Mm-hmm. 22:41 Upon hearing this, our friend was somewhat relieved, for he reflected that after all, he was a good church member. 22:47 This hope, however, was destroyed by the doctors telling him that while his religious convictions were very good, in his case, they did not spell the necessary vital spiritual experience. 22:57 Here was the terrible dilemma in which our friend found himself when he had the extraordinary experience, which as we have already told you, made him a free man. 23:08 We in our turn sought this, sought the same escape with all the desperation of drowning men. What seemed at first a flimsy reed has proved to be the loving and powerful hand of God. 23:19 A new life has been given us, or if you prefer, a design for living that really works. All right, thoughts, reflections. So th- this is about as good of a definition or, or picture, I guess- Mm... 23:34 of the program as I can th- uh, think of. The seemed a flimsy reed- Mm... and it turned out to be the hand of God. Mm. 23:41 And it, it, back to what we started this little solution section highlighting, is that nobody liked it. Nobody understood it. Uh, rarely does somebody understand or, or wanna go through these things. 23:55 And yet, as we follow through with actually getting willing to work it, it can end up saving our lives. And not only that, saving it by means of a complete rearrangement of our ideas- Right... and attitudes toward life. 24:12 Yeah, I think that, I, I think that part in there is, I mean, it's not surprising. It, freaking Jung wrote it. Mm. Um, 24:19 but, but yeah, that line you just referenced, "They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements." Yeah. Uh, that is a, for a lot of people, that's a big ask, um, 24:33 because what you're asking people to do is become flexible. And so many people, and it, and it references it, too, like this guy, "Well, I was a good church member," you know. 24:44 But what that, what I hear there is there is a rigidity- Mm-hmm... that he exhibited in his belief system and in his willingness to believe. I'm doing enough already. Sure. Should be sufficient. 24:56 Yeah, and it's being done in certain parameters. In other words, I don't, I don't currently 25:03 have the ability to creatively think about what this solution may be, because this is what the Bible tells me the solution should be. Yeah. 25:14 Um, and I think like, yeah, what Jung is encouraging there is this idea of becoming more flexible. Not permissible. I think there's a big distinguishing mark there. It's not permissibility. 25:27 In other words, "Yeah, let's get inclusive, and let's, we're, we're, we're, we're..." No, no, no, no. But it is becoming flexible in your ability to experience scripture- Mm... 25:37 rather than to just either tolerate it or just understand it. Mm. Right? It's, it's this experience that I think Jung is referencing there. Hey, be sure to check out the conclusion to this discussion next week. 25:51 Find out more information and subscribe to The Daily Reflection at progressandperfection.com.
